Interview with a student from Afghanistan
Wednesday 2023/01/11
Interviewer Ida Hellkvist Karlsson and Ella Eklund
Trento, Italy
What was your occupation/activity before you moved from Afghanistan?
I finished my highschool in Afghanistan in the capital, Kabul. And afterwards I was looking for the experience of studying abroad. I applied to a couple of countries, one of them was Germany and the other one was India that I was really considering to pursue my bachelor degree and I finally managed to get a scholarship to get my bachelor’s done in India. I had some troubles with the fees and everything but I finally got it, but that’s the thing about being an Afghan, which is very normal, you don’t get VISA’s very easily. So I finished my bachelor in India, my highschool was in southern of Afghanistan and then afterwards I did the training, you know, the last semester when you have to do the industrial training, I got an internship in Dubai in a construction company because that is my best insurance of civil engineering, which is kind of unusual in Afghanistan and that was like one of the reasons why I wanted to study the bachelor abroad rather than doing it in the country because not many girls are into, not that they are not into, they are not really allowed or maybe they don’t get into the field because they feel like it’s going to be very challenging or they will not have the platform to grow. So there aren’t many girls into engineering, there weren’t back then, and also I wanted to have the experience of going outside to study abroad. And I finished my internship in Dubai and then I got off for a job right after I finished it, which I accepted, but like because I wanted to also go back to my country but one of my main motives was to work for my country as well, it was not just the civil engineering which was my dream, but other than that I also wanted to like serve the woman or the girls and being more specific. I´m going back and forth in time, but before going to India, by the time when I was applying for the scholarship and everything, right after I graduated from highschool, I worked for a couple of months for an NGO that worked for woman and basically girls rights to education which for me was very interesting because that was one of the reasons I felt like I have to go out because it was not, it was kind of, I could say frown upon for a girl to be an civil engineer, and the chances of you getting a job at a sight or a project would be like close to cero, you know. So you have to get an office job. So I worked for that NGO and because of the experience that I had, I wanted to also go back to Afghanistan to do something for my country and so I accepted the job in Dubai, but it was kind of a flexible thing where I could work remotely sometimes and go back and forth, and then i recontacted the NGO and I started working with them. So in 2017, when I finished my bachelor’s for four or four and a half years, until I came to Italy, I was just busy between Afghanistan and the United Arab Emirates working two jobs, also because my family was based in Afghanistan.
Okay, so how come you came to Trento?
Well, first when I came to Italy I came to Rome where I was invited to an exhibition called “make affair” which is an yearly exhibition for science, technology and robotics and everything, and I was invited through the NGO that I worked for in Afghanistan. And while I came to Rome I kind of migrated so I needed to figure out my life again and restart basically and I thought that it was the best time to think about getting my Masters degree because I always wanted to get it, but then after I got my bachelor and I started working because of some reasons, mostly financial for my family as well, I didn’t really got the break for getting back and and getting my Master. So I thought, a good way to restart might be to get my Master and then I applied to, I would say three or four universities among which I got two admissions, one in Politecnico di Milano and the other one in Trento, but I choose to come here, I mean they say that Politecnico di Milano is one of the most prestigious universities and everything and whenever I say it to people they are like “oh, you turned downed Politecnico di Milano“, but I mean I really liked the fact that, I really wanted to experience education at a smaller scale you know, not being just a student among a class I don’t know, one hundred, I just wanted to have that interaction with the teacher so I choosed Trento, and of course I mean it’s a highly ranked university as well and the Master degree was quite interesting for me in comparison to Politecnico so I choose to come here. And another reason I would say was the city, because I wanted to be like, you know, in a rather small city and far away from chaos and have some mental peace, that’s why I came here.
So for long have you been here in Trento now?
I came here at the end of August/September. I just finished one semester, the first semester of my Master’s, I would say four months.
How is your overall image of being a student in Afghanistan?
That´s a very broad question and I don’t really know how to answer that. Well, I was a student in exactly those twenty years that the people are looking back at, because that was literally the window between the two dark eras in Afghanistan that just came back very quickly. I would say that I’m really thankful to have the chance to study because if I look back at people before me and girls right now that have been deprived their education rights, I really feel lucky, I mean, it was really hard in ways not only for girls but even in general, the security issues even during those twenty years, going to school it was kind of riskier than it would be normally. I mean, anywhere in the world going out is risky but then in Afghanistan the risk was much higher, you didn’t know if you were going out and, I don’t know, die in an explosion or something, you know, which was very very common. But I mean, overall I would say I kind of feel lucky to have had the chance to finish my studies in Afghanistan because I can’t even imagine how the other girls who are anywhere during their school time are feeling, whatever grade it is I guess it hurts kind of the same, even if they are in their first grade or they are just finishing, I would say it kind of hurts the same. But, I mean my personal experience was, I would say, I can not define it in one word but I have mixed feeling about it, while it was not the best I feel grateful for having the chance that a lot of people don’t do now, so I don’t really feel like really highlighting the bad parts of it because it’s more like, now it’s the bigger picture of people not even being able to go to school. I don’t even remember the details behind it, but yeah I would just say that.
When you left Afghanistan, did you come alone or do you have your family members in Afghanistan or did they move with you?
No I came alone, I actually, as I told you I was working in Dubai and Afghanistan so I was traveling sometimes back and forth and somewhere, if im not wrong, around June, like a month or two before the government fell I had to travel to Dubai for work and also for some medical reasons, because I had the health insurance so it was a lot easier to get medical things done there. I traveled to Dubai and that was when things started going south you know, not at once but, I mean the capital fell on the 15th of August if im not wrong, but a couple of months before that things were started to like heat up, and while I was there, when I was done like I could go back but then talking to my family and especially my brother because he worked with the US military before, they did just advice me not to go back and to just wait and see what happens. So I was in Dubai for a month and a half while I was waiting for things to get better, and that was what everybody thought, that it was going to be at least a six month transition, we never thought it was going to finish in just over a night or in a minute. So I was just waiting for that transition to begin so I can go back but that didn’t happened and on that day on the 15th of August when they took over the government I just had nowhere to go basically, I mean I could go back technically, I could just go back to Afghanistan but that wouldn’t make sense when everybody was running away. And my family couldn’t get out right away because there were like millions of people you know, so you just can’t get out, it took them a couple of months to get out. They are not here but I had to live there alone and then from there I was trying to stay in Dubai and survive with my work and everything, but it’s not like you can stay there forever because you just have a work VISA and the moment you don’t have a job you have to leave and being an Afghan you don’t really have a lot of options to go to a lot of places to go, so you just have to back to your country. So from there I thought I just have to find another place to go because I couldn’t stay in Dubai and I couldn’t go back to Afghanistan even though my family was there, and that’s when I got invited to the exhibition and I came here and decided not to go back basically
So this was a very stressful period for you?
Oh yes, it was terrible.
Are your family in safety now?
Yes well, I have my parents and my brother who were in Afghanistan and then eventually got shifted to Georgia, a third country where they have to wait until they get shifted to the US which didn’t happen because the US couldn’t take more people, luckily, and they went to Canada. So they spent around I guess a couple of months in Afghanistan and almost or exactly one year in Georgia while they were waiting to be shifted, but luckily they were not in a camp, they were being supported by an NGO, the same NGO that I worked for. And then I have two sisters which are married and one of them lives in London and she luckily was there while all of this happened. So they decided to stay but the UK immigration is not the best thing in the world I would say because it has been one year and they still haven’t got a date for the interview on the hearing of their case. And then there is my other sister who was airlifted again by the Americans to Abu Dhabi, she is staying in a camp with her family that is I would say is the most terrible thing because it’s been more than a year, from november of 2021, so it’s been a year and a couple of months that they have been staying in the camp. They eventually have to go to the US but again, the US can’t take more people, so. But I mean at the moment all of them are safe, they are either half way or resettled, so. And I don’t really have friends, I would say close friends or close relatives left there luckily or unluckily, I don’t know, but yeah, that was about them.
According to you, what were the challenges and the or maybe the opportunities of the beginning of your university education here in Trento for you?
Well, the challenges for me personally would, I would say, I have experienced studying abroad so I would say that was not really challenging for me because I have already done it once in India. It’s not that it get easier but you just know what you are going to face so it’s a lot easier, and also the fact that I could speak english and also a bit of Italian made it a lot easier for me but I don’t like to speak about it in general because for me personally Trento wasn’t really challenging, it was the opposite, it was life changing. But I would say that it could be challenging for people that come from countries like Afghanistan directly without having the exposure to the outside world in terms of language because they have to spend almost one year trying to learn either Italian or English to be ready to study and also to get around I would say. I don’t think, I mean, the people who are in charge of projects are really doing all they can, but there is so much you can do. I mean, you can all just take people and take them for a city tour, like just to get to know the city and make friends and get to know people can be hard for anybody in general but it can be a lot harder if you come from a trauma you know, it get a lot more difficult than normally. I personally haven’t faced any challenges yet. I think the only thing that is hard for me is the fact that I was away from studying for like four or five years and right now going back to it, it seems kind of impossible given the level of concentration that I have because I have like thousands of things on my mind, but, I don’t know about Afghanistan, about Iran, about my family, about my sisters case. I don’t know, there is a lot to worry about so you can’t not just concentrate. Like, I know everybody has that problem but it just gets a bit more, so. But overall I mean, so far I have been, I like it here, I haven’t really felt any problem or anything.
Being a woman, have you received any support from your family or close circle or friends for pursuing secondary and tertiary education?
Yes, a lot. All around the world I believe people take things for granted, like the right to education or support from the family or from your closed ones. But I would say coming from Afghanistan I really really really am thankful for having the family that I have. Just that I grew up in a society where I could see my friends or goes around me even the people that I knew, other than the general knowledge that you have of the country. I could see that they are not able to do so many things that they want to, which is taken for granted outside Afghanistan or in the western world. So I’m really lucky and thankful given the fact that i’m from Afghanistan to have such a brilliant family because, they are not only supporting me but they never tried to influence my decisions, like, I guess they weren’t really happy, or I wouldn’t say happy, I mean they could have talked me out of studying civil engineering but they never even tried to. Given the fact that in Afghanistan that’s not the best thing for a woman to study civil engineering, and they never even tried to, they on the opposite side say that they just kept supporting me. I didn’t even know if i’m going to finish my bachelor’s, I didn’t even know if i’m going to have a job in Afghanistan but they never made me think about all of that. They were always very hopeful and they were saying “you never know maybe until you finish you bachelor things are maybe going to be different”. They have always supported me all the time, and they made me believe in myself a little bit more than I should. I don’t want to look at it as a negative thing, but they always made me this perfectionist who should get perfect marks, who can do anything she wants, who can learn how to play the violin (which she can’t) she tried, but my family believes that I can. They were just saying that I could do anything that I want to and as long as it’s not crazy they never stepped in my way. As long as it’s reasonable in general. If we were to set a level of normality and if the things i would like to do were not crazy they would completely let me do it and even support me with it. Even though I know I’m like “I can’t do it, I’m going to fail” and they are like “no you’re not” and I’m like “i might fail and that’s okay” and they are like “no you’re not”. I’m like “guys okay, I know I was a nerd back then or I was a geek maybe but now i’m no more that person” but they are like “no, that person is within you, you just have to find it again”. Like please stop it, it’s so much pressure. So yes, my family particularly has been more than supportive, my family is like a miracle, looking around at other people. I have known so many people that, well i didn’t know people that couldn’t go to school because during those twenty years have been lived in the capital and it was quite normal for people to go to school but I can imagine in the villages and in cities far away, people might not allowed their girls to study. But I know people who couldn’t choose exactly what to study, maybe they wanted to do a certain thing like mechanical engineering or match, or physics, or anything, but they had to study, i don’t know, something in the medical field or literature, or thinks like that, which are of course good but again, if it’s not your choice, they are not good. I have known so many people that didn’t have that chance or that freedom and that kind of made me even more grateful for having the basic human right that I should have. But knowing the fact that so many around me didn’t have it with me, made me very grateful, especially to my family.
This fits pretty well with our next question, which is about how do you think the education system of the last 20 years in Afghanistan fits into academic freedom in general terms?
On so many different levels, starting from first not being allowed to go to school at all, then to being allowed to go to school until a certain time for somebody’s logical reasoning, I don’t know. Somebody just decided that you can just go to school until twelfth grade, and then you can’t study anymore. You know, that’s it and you can’t question that. Or for certain reasons like, I don’t know, getting married and then when you are married it doesn’t really make sense and people are like “oh so you are married now so you are going to have children, why do you have to go study?” you know, that’s it, over. So on different levels, on your own family, on your marriage status, on the beliefs or the norms of the society for what a woman should or not should do and should or shouldn’t study. There are so many limitations, but, I mean, even during those twenty years this was there but you at least had the chance to fight your way and get what you want to on a certain level. Now it’s completely out of question, it’s not about your family, it’s not about you, it’s just in a way that you can’t. Even if you want to.
And that’s the difference between now and then?
Yes, I would say. But I would say during those twenty years people’s mentality really changed. If I were to compare the early 2000 with 2-3 years ago, there is a drastic change in every way about women and their involvement in the society. When I was studying it was literally in the beginning so there were things that I have seen that maybe in the later part of those years people wouldn’t see anymore, I guess. But it was really improving, but now it’s just completely out of the question.
Do you get the feeling that it is the civilians, the people’s mindset that are changing about the way they are thinking about women and education, or is it more like the government that are forcing people to think like that? Or do people actually think like that?
The point is that you can’t be forced, it was the people’s idea and mentality changing because we didn’t have a law and place saying that every girl should go to school, we didn’t have that kind of thing. But it was the people changing their ideas, when they were seeing that there was a girl who, I don’t know, invented something, I would say like the Afghan Robotics team girls, and there were so many other brilliant women and girls who had done a lot. By seeing those definitely changed their ideas. A big concern for people, for not allowing their girls to go to school I would say, is mainly the security factor. In the big cities, rather than the traditional culture and the religion which was changing over the past twenty years. So I would say people were changing their mentality, because the government couldn’t force them, or did’nt force them anyway. So they had the right to choose, and I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing but I would say it was the people’s mentality that was changing. It didn’t need a lot of work of course, because I can not deny the fact that there were so many girls that still didn’t have the right to study or to choose what they wanted. But at least they were making some progress.
In the long term, now that girls can’t go to school anymore, how do you think this will affect society in general from now on?
I don’t think I can answer that question anymore, because to me it didn’t make sense going to school until sixth grade, to do what? And then what? And for me the most absurd part was that there was this forced to the sixth grade and then they were going to the university. But I was still happy about it, given how much I know. I mean, I don’t really like politics but having lived there I can imagine the depts that they can sink to, so I was happy that at least they were keeping some of it, hoping that we could force back the rest of the girls to go back to school, like let them allow like the others do.
About this new current school system in Afghanistan, do you know if this is something people are talking about or dare to talk about?
Yes, definitely. Even people in Afghanistan are, I don’t know I can’t get you an exact answer of everybody being against it because that is not going to be true. Unforteley there are people, there are different kinds of people with different kinds of mentality even before when we had a chance to study, there were people that were still not allowing their girls to study. So I wouldn’t say they are really sad about the situation but there is a big number of, like a large number, a large part of the society is against it, even the male students who are going to the university, are protesting and they are not going to the examinations and they are saying, there is this famous hashtag going out saying “all or none” which has been going around in Afghanistan as well. So, even the male part of the society is against this idea and some of them are not going to classes. They are saying that unless the women or the girls won’t be allowed to come, we are not going to attend. But I really don’t know how much the government cares about that, it’s very disturbing because I believe the government does not care about anything. It doesn’t even care about educating the men, so for them there is not a problem, if you don’t want to come to class then dont come to class, it’s very simple
So in general, do you think views of the school system differ from what men think and what women think? Or do all women want education or is it more of a polarization where men don’t want women to go for education or is it women as well that agree that women should not educate themselves?
For all I know, only the dependence of the new terrorist government, the women of their families pretend to not want women to go and get educated, or they pretend to be completely fine with the rules and the regulations which I believe comes from oppression, it’s not their choice. So deep down I would say I can not believe that a woman would be okay with this, and I haven’t seen anybody else other than them, which for me is the only logical explanation for being oppressed and not having a choice because, I don’t know, your husband or your father or your brother is a part of that movement, so you can not do anything else. But I would say, women, I would believe even if I hear it, I would rather think that it comes from that there is a reason behind it. Because it doesn’t make sense for a woman not to want to be educated or to be independent. While men, again I will have to say the same thing, I can not give one answer, there are men who really support the cause of women’s education and rights to freedom. At the same time there are men with a very old mentality that think that women don’t really need education and they could just reach a certain age and get married and take care of family, you know, take care of their children. So on the men’s side I would have a confusing answer.
Do you have friends that are girls or classmates right now that are still in Afghanistan?
As I mentioned before, not very close relatives or friends, but I mean, because everybody is trying to get out. Before this event I had, I don’t know like, 80% of my relatives even in Afghanistan, but now if I have to say, nobody close.
And what’s your plans for the future, what are you planning in educational terms? Do you have any expectations or fears for the future?
Well, as I said I chose the master as a way to restart because it makes more sense to me. While I respect every field of work or any job, I wanted to continue being in the same field or at least something close to it. So I thought the best way would be to just, like, polish my knowledge or get a degree that would be valid here for work. So, I mean, if I have to talk about my plans on the short term, i’m only thinking about finishing this degree at the moment, and then eventually, I don’t know, I will see what happens in two years and then eventually I have to find a way to get back to my family, I guess. I don’t know, find a job or a work in Canada or something like that. And also travel Europe if I can manage to while I’m here. So for now i’m just doing this master, lazely, I hope I will not fail, which is completely okay to fail.
This was all of our questions, but is there anything you would like to add, or is it something we haven’t asked you about that might be interesting for us?
Well, I mean, at the moment things are just in a place where you don’t really have to say much, it is just like women can not study anymore, that’s it. The other terms are to be discussed later. It’s terrible. I would like to mention like one of the reasons that the talibans think women should not, I mean one of the reasons for them to stop women for going to university was the fact that some of them have to travel from one city to another because they live, I don’t know, in the capital and got accepted in another city and they have to go living in a dorm, a dorm which is only for girls and they are saying that they can not travel alone and stay in a building (which are literally only for girls) and they are saying based on the religion that this is not acceptable, you know. That’s one of their own reasons. The other one is the commute for example, even if you’re in the same city, you going around alone for them, a woman or a girl going around alone is not acceptable because if you like she is not safe. She has to be protected, but the question is being protected from what? Protected exactly from people being like you? So for me it’s really mind blowing that nobody is doing anything about this, and they are allowed to give whatever, i’m sorry to say, stupid reasons to justify their actions which makes your mind blow, but the international communities are literally not saying anything about it, I don’t know, whatever organizations who are in charge, the UN or the big powers in the world like the United States which one of the main reasons of what happened, whatever bad happens anywhere in the world is right now not saying anything, and just listening to these absurd excuses that they are making. So, I can not say much about it right now because, now it’s just, not happening, they are not studying anymore so we can not really talk about the details of the opportunities that they have or whether or not they are being treated equality or not, right now they are being just being deleted from the society like they didn’t even exist or they are just a tool for reproduction basically, that’s all they are.